Reframing Accountability

Jessilyn Persson: [00:00:51] Yeah, it invokes that, Oh, crap, what did I do now or what do I have to do kind of concept.

 

Brian Persson: [00:00:57] Yeah. Especially in a relationship, you know, it’s like, oh my, oh my god, what’s my partner, what’s my what’s my husband, my wife getting me in trouble for again?

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:01:04] Yeah. What did I do this time? So what is accountability.

 

Brian Persson: [00:01:08] Accountability? Accountability is basically just to be answerable or liable for something that happened. So just some type of structure that says, hey, if something happens and it goes A or B way, then here are A or B responses for that.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:01:25] Fair enough. So why is accountability important?

 

Brian Persson: [00:01:29] Because if you are not accountable then you have no reason to be responsible.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:01:34] Fair enough. And responsibility is a lot of work.

 

Brian Persson: [00:01:39] Yeah, it can be. Yeah. There’s also a lot of power, though, in responsibility.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:01:45] Absolutely. So how does it work?

 

Brian Persson: [00:01:47] Well, we talk a lot about agreements and that’s all really accountability is, it’s an agreement that, and in the context of a relationship, that you and your partner have put in place that says, if I do X, Y is the response. If I do A, B is the response. At its core, it’s basically just an agreement.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:02:11] Right. So breaking that down a little bit, I think one of the first things we want to cover off here is understanding the impact of your actions when it comes to accountability. So being aware of what the impact of accountability can have on someone.

 

Brian Persson: [00:02:27] And that goes back to what we, kind of what we joked about at the beginning, where accountability can really make you have an icky feeling because, you know, who really wants to be accountable for something. You know why do I want to know that I did something wrong, if that’s what you’re being held to account for? And I think a lot of people, like we said, feel threatened, feel accused, feel maybe cornered when they when they get accountable or when they’re taken to account, I should say. And so one of the things that can make you more accountable, instead of feeling threatened, is actually just to acknowledge the impact of what you did. So who did you affect? What did you do? How did it kind of go out into the world and change things if you weren’t responsible for something and you ended up having to be accountable? So yeah, it’s kind of like, what is it like to be on the receiving end of you, is sort of what it means to be accountable for your actions and to acknowledge the impact of your actions.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:03:43] So if I was to rephrase what you’re saying there, if I was holding you accountable for something, what I should do before that is kind of reflect on, okay, if that was me having to be accountable for what I’m asking, what does that look like, feel like? Is it realistic? What’s it going to invoke? What kind of pressure is it going to put on you? And just try to understand as many angles as I can before having maybe the expectation of the accountability.

 

Brian Persson: [00:04:18] Yeah, yeah, there’s two ways to it. There’s the person who’s trying to hold the other person accountable to something and that can feel to the person being accountable, like they’re kind of getting beat with an accountability stick. So you do, the person who is holding the person to account needs to be very, very aware of why they’re holding that person to account and perhaps what they’re feeling about being accountable. And then on the flip side, when someone is coming to you and holding you to account for someone, for something, then you equally have to say, okay, well, if I’m being held to account on this situation or this problem, what is the impact of what I did? Like why am I, why is someone coming to me, specifically my partner, coming to me and saying, you need to be held to account on such and such. You really got to think about like what the impact of your actions actually were. And if you can’t, if you can get to that point of actually understanding your impact, then you will equally be able to be more accountable in the future.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:05:34] Right.

 

Brian Persson: [00:05:34] So one of the situations that we bring up a lot is very relatable. And it’s the garbage.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:05:41] Yes. Our infamous garbage story.

 

Brian Persson: [00:05:44] Yeah. And I mean, you came to me and held me to account on not taking out the garbage at one point in our relationship.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:05:53] Hold on, let’s be clear. Firstly, to reiterate, I had the expectation that you knew if the garbage was overflowing, you would take it out. I did not communicate that. I just assumed you knew. So I was holding you to account on something that you weren’t even aware of. So that’s the first step we got to make sure we’re clearing, is that I fully communicate. And then when I did, you understood the accountability of that and how it made me feel, which is kind of what we’re alluding to, that if you didn’t do what we’re holding you account to, what does that look like for you and what does that, how does that make your partner feel?

 

Brian Persson: [00:06:29] Yeah. Yeah. Because initially my first thought was, what’s the big deal? Like when you came to me because number one, there was no agreement or structure in place around that garbage. So I felt like I should not have to be accountable for it because there was no structure of accountability for it. So you were coming to me effectively with an accountability stick and trying trying to beat me with it.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:06:57] Yeah. 100%.

 

Brian Persson: [00:06:58] And in the end, we did come up with an agreement and a structure for that. And now I am liable to take out the garbage in a frame of accountability. But initially, yeah, I really had to like go, okay, wait a minute, what? First of all, I shouldn’t be responsible for this. And then once I stepped back and actually acknowledged the impact of my actions, i.e. it was causing you a lot of frustration and a lot of resentment and irritation that this garbage was not being taken out and it just should be taken out. Seeing that impact allowed me to become more accountable to it, because I don’t want my actions to affect the world in a negative way like that. And so I naturally become more accountable.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:07:46] Yeah. I’m gonna back that train up a bit, because I think you touched on a really good point when you said I came, I came swinging with my accountability stick, and I did. But I think that’s very relatable for a lot of couples out there where there’s the unspoken, which I know we’ve spoken on different podcasts about our expectations. And I think in general, in a lot of partnerships, there’s an expectation on one partner or the other a lot around chores. And if you look at it just from the top down, you’re both are owners in that house or that wherever you live. And it’s kind of, I think, in some ways assumed that you are responsible for certain duties and you should be accountable for them. And I think that’s kind of where we landed. And it goes across the gamut, not just the garbage, but we’re talking like cleaning the floors, the house, cooking, the laundry, maintaining the car, whatever it is. And I think sometimes it’s the unspoken where we’re holding our partners accountable and they don’t, like you said, there’s no agreement. So they don’t, not that they shouldn’t understand because there’s kind of that expectation if you’re if you’re a partner living in a place that you have some responsibility and accountability to maintain that lifestyle. But I think it was just a great point to just kind of recap on many of us come into a relationship or go into a relationship, and we just have these expectations and these unspoken words and these accountability sticks that we’re wielding and not understanding that the impact to both, both partners, because it negatively impacts us both, I might be swinging it, but in there, like you said, you didn’t realize how upset I was because the garbage was overflowing and how it impacted my day. So really, just really a good point I want to bring back.

 

Brian Persson: [00:09:36] Yeah, yeah, a lot of relationships operate that way, on unspoken expectations. And that’s where they come in with the accountability stick and start swinging at their partner. Because if the expectation is spoken, that probably means that your relationship has some agreement around what should happen in that situation. And effectively, you have an accountability agreement around that situation. And you should not have to swing any accountability stick at your partner if your expectations are out in the open. But I think a lot of relationships operate on unspoken expectations. And so there’s a lot of accountability sticks getting swung around. And that’s probably why people like naturally kind of feel a little bit threatened or cornered when they hear the word accountability, or when they know they’re being held to account by something, because it wasn’t spoken about and all of a sudden this thing is coming at them. This partner is coming at them with an accountability stick, this accountability stick swinging for their head. Right? And they’re like, oh, crap, I’m cornered in this. I didn’t really expect this to happen because it was unspoken.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:10:50] Okay. So what would you say to the other side of that? So if I assumed that you were accountable for something and you naturally probably should have known, at what point do you take responsibility in that and that maybe I, as your partner, shouldn’t have to hold you accountable because it’s your responsibility. So, like, what kind of advice would you give our listeners when it comes to just owning the accountability on something that, whether it was actually spoken or written, you know it was your duty to fulfill?

 

Brian Persson: [00:11:28] Well, that’s where agreements come into place. So if you, I mean if you, there’s kind of a guessing of what you think that should be the expectations in the relationship. And, you know, you can guess all you want, but really expectations have to be discussed and have to be put out into the open. And once they do, then your agreement should come into place where you have an actual structure and an actual agreement that says, hey, if I do, if I don’t take out the garbage, it is expected that my partner is going to get mad at me and, you know, they should because I agreed and I put myself in a place of accountability to take out that garbage. So the number one thing, or the number one piece of advice, is discuss what your expectations should be and create an agreement around it so that there is accountability inside of the relationship.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:12:25] Yeah. So really good point. So I think something we can can ask our listeners to maybe take away here is if you have an expectation of your partner, or if your partner is doing something that’s really making you mad or upset, review what that is because maybe your partner isn’t fully aware of your expectation or how it’s upsetting you. And again, we go back to have that chat, communicate, and then put an agreement in place. So you’re both actually on the same page because it shouldn’t be upsetting you. So if you have any upsets in your life with your partner, odds are there’s something that’s unspoken or unidentified.

 

Brian Persson: [00:13:05] Yeah, and we have created a great structure to do that called Discover Define Design. So you can discover what what is causing you irritation, where your unspoken expectations are. You can really source out what you and your partner really need to do in that situation. And then you can design your accountability, design your agreement, on top of that to make sure that everybody in the relationship is on the same page. And with that, that is kind of one of the things that we did in our relationship. And one of the ways that I like to reframe accountability is by looking at it not so much like the accountability stick that we were talking about earlier, where you have some expectation and you come at me with that accountability stick. But more along the lines of a business, like, let’s use a business as an example. If your books aren’t balanced, i.e. your income is not higher than your expenses, chances are your business is going to go bankrupt.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:14:11] Fair.

 

Brian Persson: [00:14:11] Yeah. And accountability like the word accountant, comes from that. So your accountant is responsible for making sure that, you know, there’s a measure on your business. And I think equally in relationships, there should be a measure on your relationship in terms of accountability. And the way I look at it is not so much that you need to hold me to account to make sure that my expenses and my incomes are balanced inside of the relationship and vice versa for you, but more it’s my responsibility to make sure that my income is growing inside of the relationship, ie. like my responsibility inside of the relationship, is growing and that my expenses, like what I’m costing the relationship, is going down. And not necessarily like for you to hold me to account on that. It’s sort of like I need to make sure this business, this relationship, floats, and it’s your responsibility as well to make sure that the relationship floats and whenever there’s a deficit you need to be accountable inside that relationship to push up, push out that deficit and increase the responsibility, increase the expectations, increase the whatever you need to increase inside of that relationship to make sure that it is healthy and growing.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:15:40] That is a great analogy. Um, I think most people understand the ins and outs generically from a business expenses and profit, if you want it, you need to have the income to cover the expenses and the overage. No different, like you said, than a relationship. Like how much good are you bringing in? How much are you being responsible, accountable, versus how much negativity are you bringing in? And how can you reduce that, right?

 

Brian Persson: [00:16:07] Yeah. Negativity is a huge expense in the relationship that costs the relationship a lot. So it should be on you. It should be on your partner to guide you, if you maybe don’t have the answers to maybe your own negativity, but it equally should be responsible for you to make sure that you are accountable for your negativity.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:16:29] Right. Okay. So I think we you know, we touched a lot on accountability. And I go back to the beginning there where we say like, oh, it invokes that feeling. And so how can we help our listeners reframe how they ask or what they say or how they approach their partner when it comes to accountability?

 

Brian Persson: [00:16:51] Yeah. So like I said, it’s your responsibility to make sure those books are growing, i.e. your relationship is growing. So here’s a really simple way of looking at it. If I want you to be fit as a partner, you know, I want you to have the body I’m looking for in a partner, then it is equally responsible for me to be accountable to my body. And so I’m less concerned about what you look like and more concerned about what I look like, because then I’m being accountable to what I want inside of the relationship. So whether that’s how fit you are, whether that’s negativity or positivity, whether it’s money, how much money each partner makes, there’s accountability within that. And you need to look at what your responsibility is within that accountability.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:17:46] Yeah, that makes sense. Even, I suppose, you could look at it from the household perspective. So if one partner expects the house to be cleaned, are both partners contributing to that end goal?

 

Brian Persson: [00:17:57] Yep, yep.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:17:58] Right? And if not, obviously the books aren’t balancing and someone in that duo is going to be upset or frustrated at some point.

 

Brian Persson: [00:18:06] Yeah, yeah. The books in that relationship are going to get out of balance. And to use another analogy of debt, if you have a lot of, if you’re not being accountable in your relationship and you’re accumulating a lot of debt inside of your relationship, then what happens when you have a lot of debt? Well, your interests are going up, your interest payments are going up. You’re paying more and more every month to just maintain the relationship or the debt that you have. And instead of being able to wipe that debt out and actually grow, you end up like starting to go underwater inside of your relationship.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:18:49] So a lot of this leans into, I would say also like fairness, right? So if you want your partner to be fit and you’re really out of shape, is that really a fair expectation or ask on your partner? Same with a house. You want a clean house, but you know you’re the messy one. Like, you know, that just creates an unhealthy imbalance for the relationship.

 

Brian Persson: [00:19:13] Yeah. Like from my perspective, you have no right to wield your accountability stick. If you, if you’re unfit, you know, and you expect your partner to be fit, then what right do you have to wield that accountability stick, right?

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:19:31] Yeah.

 

Brian Persson: [00:19:31] Yeah. Same thing for, you know, positivity, money, all kinds of stuff. So like money is a great one because I think that can be, I think that can be very unbalanced in a lot of relationships. But at the same time, you know, it’s maybe not always quite apples to apples.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:19:49] Agreed.

 

Brian Persson: [00:19:49] And so there should be, again, back to an agreement as to maybe the worth of what a particular piece of accountability is. So if I’m accountable to making the money and you’re accountable to raising the kids, just as an example, we’re pretty 50/50 on that in our relationship. But if that was the case, then the accountability, I can’t expect to come at you with my accountability stick and say, Hey, you need to make more money when you’re also raising the kids.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:20:26] No, I think I’m so glad you brought that up. That’s a, I think that’s a great comparison. And a sore spot for a lot of relationships is money and absolutely an agreement in place for generally the expectation of the money, so like you said, the example there where if the man is making the money and the woman is staying home watching the kids, or maybe she’s working part time and watching the kids part time, you need to have an agreement in place of what that looks like so your expectations are set properly and obviously take in outside things as well. I think if you’re both career driven professionals, which is amazing, like we are and we have a family and we’re raising them, and I decided to go back to work, you want to reflect that it’s not like you said, apples for apples. You’re not necessarily making the exact same amount. And there are factors out there in the world that, of course, you know, I’ve had to deal with where I just, as a female, didn’t get paid the same as my male counterparts. And that doesn’t mean I wasn’t doing the same job. It just meant it is what it is at the time. And so taking that into account, like look at all variables when you are discussing your agreements and when it comes to things like finance, where there might be external factors, where your partner may not get a choice in it.

 

Brian Persson: [00:21:57] Yeah, yeah. Again, going back to the business, it’s just a really easy analogy for that. You know, there’s different ways to make money in the business. There’s different expenses you can cut in the business. And it’s not all the same apple inside of a relationship either. So you, inside of the relationship, you and your partner, just like we have inside of our relationship, have put, have discussed and put values on what is important and what is not important, i.e. what has kind of a high worth and what has not so much of a high worth. So things that have a high worth, we need to be more accountable to. Things that have less of a worth, we need to be less accountable to. Like for example, we’re very busy. Our schedule is generally fairly packed. And so we have a high accountability, a high worth, on our time and our calendar. We talk about our calendar a lot, where, you know, if our calendar is not in sync and we make an error and book something over top of somebody else, I book a meeting over top of one of your meetings, and now all of a sudden the kids can’t be drove somewhere.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:21:57] Yeah.

 

Brian Persson: [00:23:12] Then that is on me to actually fix that issue, right? I’m not going to come to you and say, hey, you need to change your meeting or you need to figure something out around this. The accountability is on on my end.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:23:29] Yeah. No, that’s a great analogy.

 

Brian Persson: [00:23:32] So, going back to reframing accountability, I like to, perhaps I like to look at things from a little bit of a different angle sometimes, but I don’t like to be accountable for things. So I end up being accountable for things so that before anybody else can kind of take me to account on it. And just a story on that. One of my good friends, actually, we – this was a couple years ago, I think – you and I were trying to sort out some problem, I can’t even remember what the issue was a few years ago, but I went, again, one of the other things we talked about, I went to an outside source to just kind of reflect on our relationship and see what was going on. And I was telling him about what was happening inside of our relationship. And he said to me, he’s like, Brian, like you don’t need to be responsible and accountable for everything. And something really sat wrong with me when he said that. And I was like, actually, I can actually be accountable and responsible for everything. And the more I try to be responsible and accountable for inside of this relationship, the more I’m going to benefit. And that’s kind of when I started to reframe how I thought about accountability, not as something that happens to me, like a reactionary thing, and more like an action thing, where I can say, if I can be accountable in this area, then I’m going to benefit in that area. And I’m not going to wait for you, my partner, to come forward and say, hey, you need to be accountable and we need to have an agreement around this.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:25:19] Yeah, no, that’s a really good point. And I do remember reflecting back at times when I’m maybe upset with you and for whatever it might have been, and I stop and I think about, okay, wait a minute, I’m upset, why am I upset? And if it instantly goes to blaming you, it’d be like, wait a minute, what was my role in this? Did I do everything I could to ensure you were aware, to support what it was I needed? And I’m going to tell you, no. It always comes down to no, there were absolutely other things I could have done or things I missed. And then it instantly just takes that anger off of me because I’m like, now I’m like, wait a minute, I’m not blaming you. It really, it was somewhere in there was my responsibility, my fault, or I wasn’t accountable for part of it. And so that’s a really good way to just start accountability for yourself is to just reflect every time to say, hey, what was my role? And where did I or did I not support where I wanted this to land?

 

Brian Persson: [00:26:21] Yeah, probably for me, and I think for anybody else out there, the easiest way for you to get around that kind of frustration is to just look, reflect, like you were saying, and look for where you didn’t have a conversation, look for where you don’t have an agreement. Like what did you avoid? What did you try to maybe not talk about? Where were the unspoken expectations? And almost all the time, I can’t think of a single incident in my life where I can’t look deep enough to say, oh, yeah, I didn’t have the conversation here. This is where I didn’t have that conversation. This is where I didn’t discuss with my partner, Jess, here, across the table, why this happened. I did not have that conversation.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:27:14] Absolutely. All right. To recap the takeaways from today, be aware of what the impact of accountability can have on someone. Make sure you have structures like agreements in place to hold you accountable, and reframe accountability. If you want something in your partner, ensure you have it as well. Our next topic is about choice. Choosing everything for what it is and for what it isn’t.

 

Brian Persson: [00:27:43] We release podcasts every two weeks. Be sure to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast app to journey with us and create your life by design.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:27:52] Thanks for listening to the Life by Design podcast with your hosts, Jessilyn and Brian.