Break Free from Attachment and Get Committed to Results

Jessilyn Persson: [00:01:31] Right. Right. Yeah. No, I remember a story with the good friends of ours that came over probably about a month ago now. We’re having dinner, and he was very kindly loading our dishwasher, and you could tell he was a little hesitant of whether he was putting them in the right spot. And I was just kind of like, yeah, whatever, load them how you want. And I know his fiance, he’s like, well, at home I have to load them a very specific way. And I remember looking at his fiance and kind of smiling, and you could tell, she’s like, well, yeah, that’s how they get done. And you, I remember you went to her and you’re like, well, if you came home one day and the dishes were all clean and put away, would you be happy? She goes, yeah, he goes, would you have cared how he loaded them in the dishwasher at that time? And she thought about it. She goes, no. It’s like exactly.

 

Brian Persson: [00:02:19] Yeah. Before that conversation she was attached to a particular way of doing the dishes. And I hope I brought her around to being committed to doing the dishes.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:02:27] And more so the fact that you can get a lot more help from your fiance if you just let him trial and error, do it his way, see if it works, maybe correct him along the way if you have to, but…

 

Brian Persson: [00:02:40] Yeah, attached is about how and committed is about the outcome.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:02:45] Yeah.

 

Brian Persson: [00:02:46] So the path that you get there doesn’t matter when you’re committed. It’s just that you set the outcome, you set the results, and did you achieve that outcome and that results?

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:02:56] Yeah, exactly. And that’s our first takeaway where we say to be committed means to focus on the outcome, not the steps. And I know it’s very clear, laundry, I think laundry is a big one for a lot of, at least for women, who I’ve spoken to and even myself, I remember there was a time where I had to fold. I had to do all the laundry. I had to fold. It had to be done a very specific way. And I know I’ve got girlfriends who are the same. And then I learned, well, you know, does it, does it, I get you and I get the boys to help do laundry now. And in the end it’s kind of like, well, it’s done. I didn’t have to do it. It gave me space I needed. Does it really matter? I mean, if there’s a specific way, like I like towels folded a certain way because they fit, otherwise they don’t fit in our tiny little linen closet. But other than that, it’s kind of like, hey, our ten year old, go do your laundry, he takes his basket upstairs, and if he rolls them in a ball and shoves them in the corner, well, he’s the one wearing the wrinkly clothes to school.

 

Brian Persson: [00:03:54] Yeah.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:03:55] Because he does do that.

 

Brian Persson: [00:03:56] Yeah he does. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so basically what you did is you took away the path to get to that perfectly folded towel, and all you did with our kids was set the outcome.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:04:08] Yeah.

 

Brian Persson: [00:04:08] The towel must be folded this way. Right? Do it however you want, take as long as you want, you’re folding the towel, and this is the way that the end result of that towel has to be folded.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:04:20] Exactly.

 

Brian Persson: [00:04:21] Yeah, yeah. So I think we, in our careers and probably most everybody out there gets very attached to either their career or a way of doing something about their career.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:04:34] Yeah.

 

Brian Persson: [00:04:35] And I know we did. In fact, I would say we got very detached from our career and we were not committed to it at all. And that looked like you having burn out.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:04:46] Yeah.

 

Brian Persson: [00:04:46] And that looked like me being disenchanted with the position I was in at that time years ago. And what happened was you got burnt out, you quit. And probably about, I think it was six months after that, I quit my job as well.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:05:01] Yeah.

 

Brian Persson: [00:05:02] And we absolutely did not want to be in those industries that we had quit from.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:05:10] No, at that time, I had decided definitively, I am not going back to be a project manager in IT whatsoever. And I was just so attached at the way of being I was when I was a PM and it took, of course, the personal development we did and some time for me to realize, wait a minute, what am I committed to? And it was the same with you, with, you know, like you didn’t want to be touching a keyboard and you threw that away for, I don’t know, several months before we came around and went, wait a minute, this is our money source right now. Are we committed to making money and providing for our family and building our wealth, or are we committed to being stand strong, not going to be project manager or IT guy, right?

 

Brian Persson: [00:06:00] Yeah, we probably jumped ship a little too early on that one. But the personal development that we had over that year and a half that we were kind of struggling to build that business and all the things that we were doing inside of that time really transformed who we are. And I think that, I think that probably ended up with us going, hey, you know what, are we committed to making money as fast as we possibly can? Or are we attached to not being in our old roles? And as soon as we saw that perspective that attached versus committed idea, all of a sudden we got really committed to making money. And the easiest, fastest possible way was to go get contracts in our old skill sets.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:06:47] Exactly.

 

Brian Persson: [00:06:47] We were both very good at it.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:06:48] Yeah, and we did. Right? I still have a project management job that I’m working on and you’re still doing IT building websites and applications. But because we went in with a different perspective, firstly, it was like, okay, our commitment is to make money, pay our bills, build our wealth. And I think even the the old way of being was gone. So I am now a project manager, same role, same industry. But I look at it very, very differently because I’m no longer attached. And I had that, I guess a bitterness of not wanting to do it. It’s not there anymore because now I’m doing it for a different reason, and I look at things a different way.

 

Brian Persson: [00:07:26] Yeah. Your focus on the outcome of what it was. And in our life, look at how fast that changed around when we got committed to that. We went from pretty well broke, you know over that year and a half, to paying off all our debts, investing I think it was $150,000 that year to looking at buying new real estate properties, starting another business, we went like a full 180 right around in the same exact thing that we were doing before. Exactly the same roles.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:08:01] Yeah. And much happier, much calmer, more at peace with who we are, what we are, what we’re doing, where we’re going. Right, there’s no more like negativity or anger behind doing our job, if you will, or our contract.

 

Brian Persson: [00:08:15] Yeah. And we got unattached to even the way we were doing a lot of stuff. So our performance levels went up because there was no longer a single way to do our job. Now it was a matter of getting the job done and not so much like thou must do it this way, right?

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:08:34] It really helped me, I’d say, as a project manager, because, I mean, I used to be, still, I’m probably a little bit of a perfectionist. And I know my old way was like, there’s a certain way we got to do this, and there’s a certain way my team’s got to be able to do what they got to get done at a specific time on a specific budget. I mean, that is Project Management 101. But going back into it this time, I went, okay, I know I have a schedule to follow, I know I have a budget to follow, but I got to give my teams the leniency they need to do it their way. And then when I accepted that, it was much easier for me to accept the outcomes and being able to explain when things might not go as planned, why, and just accepting it. And it was more forgiving, I think, for my teams as well, because I wasn’t so hard and pushy to get it done on time. We got to go, guys. It’s now like, okay, if I’m pushing, it’s probably because the executive’s pushing me, but they know that now.

 

Brian Persson: [00:09:34] Yeah. Or something legitimately is going wrong.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:09:36] Yeah. There are fires. Yes.

 

Brian Persson: [00:09:38] So the way I would define that is attached can very easily lead into perfectionism. And you are a hardcore perfectionist when you, and attached to like a lot of things in your life.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:09:51] I was.

 

Brian Persson: [00:09:52] Yeah. And once you got committed, all of a sudden, as you said earlier, your peace level went up like the amount of peace you felt in your life, your freedom, the ease at which you made money started to go up when you started to ditch that perfectionism. One of our friends and a fellow Grant Cardone licensee, Ken Joslin, told me once that if you can have one times 100, which equals 100, or you can have three times 80, which equals 240, right? So those three components are, none of them are are perfect.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:10:30] Yeah. But that was also, just to explain a little further, the outcome of, for example, you doing it 100%. At 100%. Or you and two other employees or people helping you, wait a minute, they might, none of us might be doing it perfectly, but we’re getting a 240% instead of 100%, the one perfectionist.

 

Brian Persson: [00:10:49] Yeah, I think a lot of businesses get attached to the way that their employees are working.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:10:53] Yeah.

 

Brian Persson: [00:10:54] And I know for you and I, in the past, there was an expectation amongst any role that we tried to take on that everybody else around us and in that role was supposed to perform at the same level that we were also performing at.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:11:09] Absolutely.

 

Brian Persson: [00:11:10] We were very attached to like them coming up to our level.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:11:14] Yeah.

 

Brian Persson: [00:11:15] And thinking the way that we do and, you know, having the drive that we do and the reality is that, you know, there’s very few people out there who just want a job and just want to just want to go to work and do their 9 to 5 and be comfortable in that, that really are going to come to that level. And, you know, you can’t introduce that drive into them. So we had to get committed to processes and systems and the results of what went on instead of like trying to bring these people up to our level.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:11:49] Yeah, I think it really came down to setting expectations.

 

Brian Persson: [00:11:53] MmmHmm.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:11:55] Not just for ourselves, but even like, for example, in project management, setting expectations on the project. And then some of them might be just mine and just I know about them but I now can be like, okay, if I know how a certain individual works, maybe they’re not a senior resource and maybe they’re not exactly motivated, so I need to now take that into account on my schedule and my time to say how long it’s going to be, whereas before I tried to force it as like, okay, yeah, it’s got to be done, that individual’s got to go at 110% and they’re going at 10%. And I’m going, oh my God, I’m pulling my hair out, right? So now I’m like, well, if this individual works at 10% then that’s how the schedule is going to work if that’s who gave me the resource, kind of thing.

 

Brian Persson: [00:12:40] Yeah. Imagine you and I and the way we react sometimes to people telling us to be different somehow. You know, very often there’s a pushback. And now imagine the people, you know, your resources in a lot of your projects, you’re here, you’re sitting there telling them to be different.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:13:00] True.

 

Brian Persson: [00:13:01] What… well, that was that was the way you used to do it, right? When you were very attached to, like, being the perfect project manager. And you imagine what it was like for your resources under that? It would have been like, hey, don’t tell me how I’m supposed to be. Right? And now you use your resources for exactly who they are.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:13:22] Exactly.

 

Brian Persson: [00:13:23] You’re much less attached to them being who who you believe they need to be and much more committed to, like the fact that you got a result that they can produce and that they can help you out with.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:13:38] Exactly. Yeah. So moving on takeaway two. To be committed means to move on.

 

Brian Persson: [00:13:45] Yeah. So what does that mean to move on and be, so I guess we were, if we were to reverse-engineer that, to attach, to be attached means to be stuck. Is really what it comes down to.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:13:58] Yes.

 

Brian Persson: [00:13:59] And to be committed means that you just, sometimes you got to let things go. You got to let things go. And they got to, they got to fall behind you into the past.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:14:08] Yeah, yeah. Being stuck is not a happy place to be. And I mean, that’s I guess a good note for our listeners that if you are stuck somewhere, look at what you’re attached to and figure out what your commitment is. And I guarantee you that little shift will get you unstuck.

 

Brian Persson: [00:14:26] Yeah. You’ve probably only looked at one path. And you’re just not, like that path looks impossible, that path looks like it can’t be done. And so you just sit there. And if you get committed to the result, you’ll start finding that there are multiple paths.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:14:44] Absolutely.

 

Brian Persson: [00:14:45] Yeah. I know for both of us, when we went through a lot of our personal development, there’s kind of an adage in personal development is that when you get your personal development, don’t go screaming it from the mountain top.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:15:00] Exactly.

 

Brian Persson: [00:15:00] Because no one wants to hear it.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:15:03] So true.

 

Brian Persson: [00:15:04] Yeah. But it is so hard. And we see it over and over again for people who all of a sudden have these massive transformations in their life, their life looks black when it was white before, like it’s just totally different. And, that they do that. They go and they like scream their personal development to their family and their friends and their colleagues and those people are generally not ready for it and they don’t want it.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:15:32] Oh, absolutely. I mean, you come out of personal development usually on a high, and you’re like so passionate because you’ve experienced this change and you want everyone, all your loved ones around you, to do it as well. I mean, I think we’re a perfect example. I did some in 2015 and yeah, I tried to get you. I almost had you convinced and then it just nope. And that was two years before you actually finally went. And then of course, now your world changed and you want to change everyone’s world on your own. Thank you to my world.

 

Brian Persson: [00:16:05] Yeah, yeah.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:16:06] Welcome to my world.

 

Brian Persson: [00:16:07] Well, that’s a perfect example, because you were trying to drag me along into your personal development.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:16:14] Yeah.

 

Brian Persson: [00:16:14] And that’s the problem, is you can’t, imagine dragging anybody, right. Like, you know, a five year old kid when they’re screaming and kicking out of the grocery store. You got to drag them. And when you’re the parent, i.e. the person who’s got the personal development, everybody around you is like a five year old that you’re trying to drag kicking and screaming out of the grocery store.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:16:39] Yeah. And it’s exhausting for you, like the parent, or the personal development where they’re trying to push or drag their way through and it’s not being received.

 

Brian Persson: [00:16:48] Yeah, I remember I, with my family, I wanted my family to have it so bad, the same personal development that we got. And it created a lot of problems, actually.  My relationship with especially my parents went really rocky for a little while.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:17:08] It sure did.

 

Brian Persson: [00:17:09] Yeah, because I was trying to drag them along into something that they weren’t prepared for, that they didn’t want, that didn’t fit their life at that time. And yeah, it created a lot of problems to the point where, like, I, the relationship with my mom was right on the edge. And then luckily, through more personal development of my own, I realized that I was very attached to my parents getting what I got.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:17:44] Yes.

 

Brian Persson: [00:17:45] And that was what was causing all the issues, is that for me, there was only one way to have this come out. And that is, my parents must have this. And once I went through some more personal development, I realized I needed to get committed. And all of a sudden, my relationship with my mom especially changed around. It felt like it changed around overnight. There was a lot of work to do past that, but I realized that my mom, when it came down to it, like at the absolute bedrock of our relationship, she just wanted a really good relationship with her son. And that was it. And it didn’t matter to her how it all played out. And here I am trying to force them into a relationship of a particular way. Right?

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:18:33] Yeah. No different than I mean, obviously I didn’t quite know it back then, but early, just before I got pregnant with our first one, I was helping my dad with his books and his business. And when I saw some ways to help improve his business and for him to be more successful, make more money, and then I imposed those on him, if you will, he did not like it. And I was attached to him improving it, and he was attached to being stubborn and like it’s… and so it just, it killed our relationship. It did at that time. I mean, we’ve got a fantastic relationship now, but it went really sideways for a while there and then I just had to learn. It’s like, no, what’s more important, my relationship with my dad or anything else I might be attached to. And that’s when I went, no, relationship with my dad. Whatever that looks like, I will make it work.

 

Brian Persson: [00:19:30] Yeah. You had to ignore the financial distress of your dad’s business. And in order to preserve the relationship with your dad because that’s what was more important to you.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:19:40] Exactly.

 

Brian Persson: [00:19:41] Yeah. So how do you move on from these things? Let’s talk about that. How do you move on when you’re really attached to something? The way that I like to look at it, especially when it comes to, like, my relationship with my mom, is that you need to have perspective and not perception. So perception is when you’re looking out of your own eyes, and perspective is when you can, like, shift the camera around and look out of other people’s eyes. So if you can have perspective and be able to just see what other people see and understand what they’re feeling, what they’re thinking, what they’re doing, then you will be able to move on because all of a sudden you’re not seeing it from only your perspective.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:20:28] Yeah, no that’s great. And I think that works wonderfully in the workplace as well. I mean, when it was just my perception there was a certain way these resources had to do their work. It was like you said, a one-way street. But when I looked at the perspective and literally put myself, I guess, in their shoes is the way you’d say it, it’s like, okay, what are they experiencing? What other projects are they working on? What else do they got going on? And when I realized that, I went, oh, they can only do so much. And it just totally changed the dynamic of everything going on with that.

 

Brian Persson: [00:21:03] Perspective and perception is a deep topic. And we’re actually going to tackle it in our next episode.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:21:10] Yeah we will, we’ll be going into it deeper. But I mean it’s good for relationships as well. Like if you want your partner to do something very specific. I mean, firstly, look at how attached you are to it and what your commitment is, and maybe just throw yourself in their shoes and say, hey, what else do they got going on in their life that sometimes we’re not aware? Like we get busy doing our own thing, we might not know everything that’s going on in your partner’s mind and life, and they might have more going on than they’ve told you. So just be more open.

 

Brian Persson: [00:21:43] Yep, yep.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:21:45] To the way that you’re gonna move forward with it. All right. Takeaway three. To me, to be committed means to decide if the presumed or cultural expectations in your life are meaningful. That, I think, is a big one. I mean, cultural, there’s a lot of things we see and we don’t even know where they came from. It could be our ancestors’ ancestors. And it just, that’s just the way it was and the way it came down, the way things are done. And so you just inherited it, or you presume that’s the right way, and that’s how you kind of live your life, but never stop to think about is it the right way or is it the right way for me? Right?

 

Brian Persson: [00:22:27] Yep. Money is a big one there because your family will often impose your money views on you, whether you remember it happening or not, the way you grew up and the way your family talked about money and the way your family treated money will often create an attachment for you on the way money should be used, the way money should be earned. And it can very, very quickly or, not quickly, but like very well cement you into a way of being with money where you’re much more attached to treating money that way, because that’s how your family treated money and less committed to maybe making the money that you want. Maybe it’s, maybe the way that your family made money is not the way that you want to make money.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:23:19] That is huge. Money mindset comes from your childhood. I mean, there’s studies that prove that. And I mean, I’m a prime example, right? I grew up without money, and my mom was very much a, let’s call it a hoarder when it comes to money, if that’s even a thing. But she’d save every penny, you know, and try not to spend on anything. Try to do everything ourselves, right? From whether it be baking and canning to making clothes and fixing the house ourselves. Right. And my dad was a little bit more of a spender. And, you know–

 

Brian Persson: [00:23:55] — big time–

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:23:56] — he had a hole in his pocket, it just fell through. And now when I, you know, here we are, how many decades later and I look at myself or my sisters and their way of being with money, and you could see, you could see the shadow of at least one of our parents. And I say that because my older sister is more like my dad, she’s got a bit of a spending problem. And then there’s myself, who I was the extreme opposite. I just saved every penny and I held on to every dime and couldn’t spend, couldn’t spend. And that was unhealthy, it was restrictive. It didn’t give me freedom to do some of the things I wanted to do. It also, I mean, I wouldn’t spend on things I needed to, whether it be self-development, which helped me learn to be better with money or how to make more money, or the thoughts around money. So our money story 100% comes from our upbringing or our cultural norm or expectations. So I’d highly recommend our listeners to just kind of look at how their parents handled money and see if that’s how they handle it. And if it is, is that okay? Like, is that okay for who you are and where you’re going and what you want to do? Right? And sometimes it’s a fit and sometimes it’s not. And if it’s not that’s okay too. It’s always okay to change to make it work for you.

 

Brian Persson: [00:25:08] Yeah. I would also recommend, you know, exploring the feelings that are coming up around that. Because like for you, as an example with your mom and your hoarding aspects, is it, was there any feelings that came up for you when you spent money that, like, were negative in nature?

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:25:29] Oh, yeah. So first, let me be clear. My mom’s not a hoarder. It was only the money.

 

Brian Persson: [00:25:31] Money, money. Yeah. Sorry. Money hoarder.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:25:34] She’s very much not a hoarder. But oh, absolutely. Like, it caused, like, tight chest anxiety when I was spending money, it’d be like, oh, could I save? I’d wait and try to save or like, you know, wait for deals in the paper or just right out not do things because I’m like, oh, I can’t afford it. Even if there was money in my bank, I could afford to do it, I was just too terrified to spend it, worried that a rainy day might come and we won’t have money for food on the table or to pay the bills.

 

Brian Persson: [00:26:01] Yeah, for me it was feelings of guilt there. So my parents were middle class and, or are middle class, and again, I took on a lot of the family way of doing money and that was, you know, save 10% and buy a house and like, make sure you pay down your mortgage and all these kind of cultural norms. Right? And some things worked out for me for sure. But I know when I stepped out of those bounds that my family kind of imposed on me, I felt a lot of guilt. It was like, oh, crap, this month I did, you know, or this year I didn’t save 10%. I only saved 8%. Like, what kind of son am I? I luckily did buy a house, listened to my parents and bought a house early. And managed to catch a boom here in Edmonton and that worked out very well for me, but the whole mortgage paydown thing was a whole different story, and that took some time for me to come around to where you don’t have to be mortgage-free. And in the end, we ended up remortgaging all of our properties and–

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:27:15] — buying more property–

 

Brian Persson: [00:27:15] — a whole bunch more properties, having a whole bunch more mortgages.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:27:19] And we’re much wealthier for it.

 

Brian Persson: [00:27:21] And much, much more wealthier. Yeah. Due to it.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:27:24] Yeah. And I mean, guilt is a good thing because I recall, I remember still having a lot of guilt too. Not quite the same way or reasons you did, mine was more guilt of like, oh, I can afford a nice home. I can afford a new car. Oh, wait, my parents can’t. Oh, wait, you know what I mean? And there’s that guilt of like, oh, well, they don’t have it. Should I have it? But, and that’s a real thing and it’s something to just review and and move on. And here I am and it’s like it’s okay. They made their choices, I made mine. And however that works out, it works out and no way is right or wrong. It’s just what works for you.

 

Brian Persson: [00:28:01] Well, I would say that being financially independent and financially secure is right.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:28:07] Oh, sorry. Yeah. But I mean like from your parent’s perspective, they’re financially independent and secure.

 

Brian Persson: [00:28:12] They are. Yeah.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:28:12] And we’re financially independent and secure.

 

Brian Persson: [00:28:14] We are.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:28:15] Two different ways we went about it.

 

Brian Persson: [00:28:17] Exactly. Yeah.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:28:18] And again it’s not, there’s that attached versus that committed. Like we were committed to building our wealth. If we were attached to a specific way, we would not be where we are now.

 

Brian Persson: [00:28:28] Oh, if I was attached, if I kept the attachment to the way my parents handled money, we would have one paid off property.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:28:38] Yep. It would be mortgage-free!

 

Brian Persson: [00:28:41] And that would be about it. And the rest would be perhaps in RRSPs and like registered funds and what have you to get employment tax benefits, which in the end, depending on the kind of money you’re making, really just won’t help you out long-term. So we played a different game and now we have many, many properties that all have mortgages as leveraged as we can to buy more properties, as we were talking about. And just, it’s a very different path. Very different path.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:29:17] Absolutely. But those properties are paying for themselves. And it’s a great way to build wealth and the way we did. So a step to help get you there is to evaluate your relationships. So put the situation, whether it’s money, whether it’s a relationship with a sibling, a parent, whatever it is, put it on a scale. And if it weighs positive for you, your family, your wealth and the direction you were going, then that’s great. If it’s not, it’s okay to let it go and move on to something different.

 

Brian Persson: [00:29:49] Yeah, yeah. Getting committed often means letting something go.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:29:53] It does. To recap our takeaways. First one, to be committed means to focus on the outcome, not the steps. Number two, to be committed means to move on. And number three, to be committed means to decide if the presumed or cultural expectations in your life are meaningful. Our next topic is going to be on perspective versus perception.

 

Brian Persson: [00:30:15] We release podcasts every two weeks, so be sure to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast app to journey with us and create your life by design.

 

Jessilyn Persson: [00:30:24] Thanks for listening to the Life by Design podcast with your hosts, Jessilyn and Brian.